Commerce.

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Offline Tokilin

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Commerce.
« on: February 24, 2014, 02:27:45 AM »
Here's a thought... We've all thought that the rp server should have some sort of currency.. Some have though this, and some have thought that. While it may seem impossible without an econ plugin  ( can't do that, golems need a way to steal money ), it may in fact be a reality. Near the plaza I shall build a market place ( eventually ). If we could genetically engineer some villagers to trade things for something, that would render whatever common item they trade for as "money". Idk about you guys, but the thought of gold nuggets being a currency seems kinda cool. Of course if this idea sounds likable... Perhaps a little help in ways of supplies for the market place could come my way? ^^;;

Sorry for the crappy formatting of this post, it was posted from my tablet...
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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2014, 12:57:39 PM »
That'd be interesting. Definitely add a level of realism to the world.
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Offline Zito

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 01:05:36 PM »
Are you saying that the villagers would have custom offers? Not just your usual stuff, but maybe something a bit nicer? Instead of emeralds, we would trade Gold Nuggets for it is what your going for... It sounds good to me! I'm in!


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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 01:13:54 PM »
It'd be easy, actually. It would just mean using MCEdit and a custom filter I know of to do it. But you'd be able to basically make villagers (or, for the sake of working for it, you can do this to a villager that's already spawned) and give it custom items. He'll trade whatever you want for whatever you want.

http://sethbling.com/downloads/mcedit-filters/createshops/
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Offline Zito

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 03:28:02 PM »
You can do that with just a server side?


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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 03:05:11 PM »
Late reply is late.
And you should be able to, yea.
Admittedly, I've only ever done in on SSP, but I do know that MCE is used for a lot of servers.
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Offline Tslat

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 03:42:49 PM »
Doing it with mcedit involves downloading the entire map, then editing it, then reuploading it...

Given the current state of the server, you're looking at multiple gigabytes of download, then consequent reupload.
It cannot be done server side
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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 04:13:02 PM »
Ha HA!
In all my google foo-ness, I have discovered an easy way to do it!

Just gotta use the /summon command and some clever NBT tagging ^^

Found a tut online for it http://imgur.com/a/1fSXk if you guys wanna go that route.

Meanwhile, I'll be playing with this later tonight. mwahaha!

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Offline Tslat

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 04:16:52 PM »
This is indeed the only way I know of to do it without any 3rd party stuff

Still comes down to whether we need it or not.. couldn't you just trade with other players or ask your deity?
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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 04:20:08 PM »
This is true.

lol I've no definite opinion on this. Just helping to show how one might do it, if one wanted to.
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Offline Tokilin

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2014, 04:28:30 AM »
Even then, it won't establish a base "currency". Trading with your deity is one thing, but if you wanted to trade with other players, it would end up being more barter than using whatever it is you're using as your money. Depending on needs, items would change in value quite drastically. With a place to change the "money" into, it would make a need to collect whatever it is. Like if you needed a ton of stone bricks, you could go to the market place and pay so much for them. But if you're trying to trade with other players, they might try to trade you unfairly because you need them, making iron or diamonds or whatever it is your trading for the bricks suddenly shoot up in value.

Is that making slight sense? Maybe I'm reading to much spice and wolf...
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Offline Zito

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 11:22:14 AM »
From the sounds of it, Toki is trying to say that there should be a base currency. Say, cobble is worth 1 Gold Nugget (Way too overpriced XD) or smooth stone is worth 2 gold nuggets. Then maybe stone brick would be worth 2 gold nuggets as well, etc. This way, people wouldn't be saying "Hey, I'll give you 27 diamonds for that awesome enchanted sword" One day, and saying "Hey, I'll give you 21 Diamonds for that same awesome enchanted sword" the next day. It would give everything a base price and equal out the economy.


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Offline _chickadee

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2014, 03:02:18 PM »
I also reaaalllly like the idea of a base currency, but I do believe that there should be a way for it to leave the economy as well. Ran into this problem on another server- eventually the regular players have vast amounts of money to the point that the currency becomes meaningless for them (for example, a 20 gold nugget sword is really cheap to someone who has loads of chests full of nuggets and not worth giving up by someone who has the same) and new players can't catch up. Just a factor of balance  to keep in mind.

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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2014, 03:21:04 PM »
There's also the problem, however, that this is a medieval based, RPG server.

We start adding in a currency, and the server basically becomes a themed version of the Economy/Towny server.

To your point, Tokilin (I keep wanting to type it Tolkien >.<), yea they might charge you unfairly, but that's one of the points behind the bartering system, each person is able to charge whatever they see fit, and the other is free to accept the charges or not. It's all about freedom of the players, and I'm completely for that.
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2014, 03:32:08 PM »
A currency will only work if you've got a finite resource, otherwise its meaningless.  There's only a few non-renewable resources in the game including.  You'd have to use one of those.  Gold is renewable, so that's out. 
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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2014, 03:45:40 PM »
And, unless it's a shinie, golems won't want nor care about them.

What'll you do if we have a precious tool or armor of yours, and you can't use money to buy it from us?
We'd be right back to bartering.
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Offline Zito

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2014, 03:55:25 PM »
I also reaaalllly like the idea of a base currency, but I do believe that there should be a way for it to leave the economy as well. Ran into this problem on another server- eventually the regular players have vast amounts of money to the point that the currency becomes meaningless for them (for example, a 20 gold nugget sword is really cheap to someone who has loads of chests full of nuggets and not worth giving up by someone who has the same) and new players can't catch up. Just a factor of balance  to keep in mind.

So you mean to tell me that an economy had people that were more prosperous than others?! How absurd! Everyone always has the same amount of money in real life!


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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 04:15:07 PM »
lol dude, calm down. No need to be so sarcastic.
She's right, though. all I can see it doing is creating a divide when (and where) we neither want nor need one.

What's so bad about a bartering system, letting the people involved in the trade decide what the items they're selling/buying is worth? Not to mention whatever work went in to gathering or making said items.
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Offline Tslat

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 05:32:51 PM »
I partially introduced the xp storage system for this reason..

Its a neutral, shiny object that all players can get.
No one really picked up on it though
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 07:19:44 PM »
Barter is boss in the world of minecraft business.  It's the only method to have a properly regulating economy.  If suddenly everyone has lots of sugarcane, the resource becomes less valuable and obviously, the contrary applies as well.

It's also a great way to have more race specialization/interaction.  Ice race (I know it's got a name...) are the ice specialists, therefore ice is less valuable in that specific race economy, but in a global sense, ice has incredible value (because harvesting requires silk touch) if you happen to need it. 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:43:47 PM by furryoldlobster »
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Offline danny4rest

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 09:18:27 PM »
There is always the problem of practicality versus roleplay value, with the ice example, yes the Iglim can harvest ice and packed ice without silktouch but not many people actually seem to want the ice, as ice has no value aside from trade and building, but even then it isnt of much use as it restricts what lights can be placed near it, but there are other things too, ender pearls are hard to gather due to the danger of fighting endermen and the frequency of the drop, but even though it by all means should have great value, the only ones who have need of it are to Alfar, Golems, and Iglim, and the Alfar and Golems can just steal them if they want them. On the other hand, diamonds are an incredibly valuable and practical item but they can only be used to craft things by the dwarfs. The real problem with currency is finding something that is useful on its own and is rare enough to be considered a limited resource. But currently on the server, we have been using a barter system, if someone wants ice, they ask iglim, if someone wants diamond items, they ask dwarfs, and if someone wants horse things, they ask Inarians. Just a thought i wanted to put out there.

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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 09:38:21 PM »
If leaders are willing, larger trade deals should take place too.  A leader trading for entire cases of equipment helps out his, or her, kingdom a lot more than individual trading.  If leaders are serious about boosting their race economies, they should consider delegating economic advisory positions. 

Tslat, could you explain this xp monetary system?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:44:54 PM by furryoldlobster »
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Offline Obi42

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2014, 09:49:34 PM »
It's not a monetary system per se, but our plugin allows players to store their XP in bottles. They can be saved for later, traded to elves for enchants or dwarves for diamond gear repair, or used as barter like any other item.
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2014, 10:28:11 PM »
Ah.  That's neat!
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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2014, 12:01:45 AM »
Thaaat's actually really cool. I kinda want to make a collection of those XD
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Offline _chickadee

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2014, 01:16:43 AM »
I also reaaalllly like the idea of a base currency, but I do believe that there should be a way for it to leave the economy as well. Ran into this problem on another server- eventually the regular players have vast amounts of money to the point that the currency becomes meaningless for them (for example, a 20 gold nugget sword is really cheap to someone who has loads of chests full of nuggets and not worth giving up by someone who has the same) and new players can't catch up. Just a factor of balance  to keep in mind.

So you mean to tell me that an economy had people that were more prosperous than others?! How absurd! Everyone always has the same amount of money in real life!

Whoa. So harsh. It wasn't even an economy server... I was just suggesting a possible issue we might want to avoid...

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Offline Zito

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2014, 03:30:15 AM »
I'm just pointing out the fact that in an economy, people never have the same amounts of money. There are rich, and there are poor. There is no avoiding it. It's how economies work, and it will never change.


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Offline Tokilin

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2014, 03:39:31 AM »
   Furry is right about the resource thing, but even then you'd have to change the villagers and what they want as in not wanting emeralds, but something else.(Not sure if we covered that). Thinking it over real quick, Ender pearls would probably be better. You can corner a villager and make him give you emeralds, but I don't think they trade out pearls. Any ideas for other stuff as a trade?

   Also, just because you establish something as a base currency, it doesn't mean you can't barter. It would make some resource gathering easier for those larger builds if there was a place to obtain resources as opposed to digging it yourself or trading (slave labour?). Keep in mind this was only an idea, I made this thread ages ago and it hasn't been implemented. Nothing to suddenly make it implemented now. o:
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Offline _chickadee

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2014, 11:38:08 AM »
I'm just pointing out the fact that in an economy, people never have the same amounts of money. There are rich, and there are poor. There is no avoiding it. It's how economies work, and it will never change.

I'm not worried about there being rich and poor. I'm not stupid I understand that is how any economy works. I'm worried about the currency being an unlimited resource thus producing players with so much money that the currency becomes useless. A "real" economy has a set amount of money in it as a whole. Tslat's xp bottles work because they "leave" the economy when they are used up instead of more and more just being added. It's actually really good.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 11:41:46 AM by _chickadee »

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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2014, 03:28:57 PM »
I really like the xp bottle plan as well. The one problem that could arise: player built mob spawners. That's the easiest way to take advantage of it.  Is there any failsafe for that?
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Offline Allpone

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2014, 03:40:07 PM »
No. But those who put the work into whatever they do deserve the rewards as well.

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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2014, 03:50:59 PM »
I don't want to seem too second guessy....but are ya sure? This sounds like free money. All one has to do is create a dark room just high enough so when the mob drops, one can easily one hit it. This could be done on a race wide basis?
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Offline _chickadee

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2014, 04:30:35 PM »
I have used spawners in the past to get 39 levels for armor renaming purposes. It took quite a while even with the spawner to get them. But I see what you mean, because it's definitely possible for someone to farm currency in that way. I like that the xp can be so easily be used up though for repairs, lost when dying, stolen by golems...it reinforces it's value.

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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2014, 04:53:36 PM »
I'm liking this idea more and more, actually.

Only problem is (le gasp, he's getting back to the original topic) that there's no way to do anything about this for the villagers.
Without coding, at least.
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2014, 05:47:05 PM »
Maybe Its as if traditional currency (xp seems the choice so far) isn't accepted in their tribal culture, forcing players to barter with them. Its not unlike early settler/native interraction
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Offline Blaidrug

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2014, 06:18:45 PM »
Good point.

It allows room for people to use currency if they wish, but still bartering if they so choose.
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2014, 10:40:07 PM »
If only Dwarves weren't the only race who could mine nether quartz.  That's a good choice for currency. 
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Offline Obi42

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2014, 10:41:23 PM »
All races can mine quartz now. Made that change quite a while ago.
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2014, 10:46:29 PM »
Ah.  Serves me right for only being only after midnight when no one else is. 
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Offline Obi42

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2014, 10:50:02 PM »
All the crafting, mining, and item usage stuff is enforced by the plugin... if you're not sure if you're supposed to be able to, it won't hurt to try. Well, actually, a dwarf could hurt themselves trying to use a sword ;)
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Offline furryoldlobster

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Re: Commerce.
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2014, 10:56:03 PM »
Hehe.  Thanks.  I'll stick with my axe.  Good to know that quartz is available to all.  Unless its a secretly renewable resource its probably the best choice.  Its finite and relatively shiny. 
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